[P]eople don’t like change. But make the change happen fast enough and you go from one type of normal to another.– from Making Money by Terry Pratchett –
Last week, Paula David, a good friend of mine and one of SVG’s more respected lawyers (she’s honest, dedicated and intelligent – need I say more?), wrote an interesting letter to the papers. She was protesting clause 17(2) of the Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Constitution Bill 2009, which says that [t]he State shall protect marriage, which shall be a legal union only between a person who is biologically male at birth and a person who is biologically female at birth.
Paula makes some very serious points regarding this clause. She mentions the fact that the clause further cements homophobia in SVG because the problem now has added legal backing rather than being a purely socio-religious phenomenon for which Queen Victoria had a penchant. She speaks about the hypocrisy of the state protecting marriage in this way, while neglecting the major cause of marriage’s erosion –adultery. She mentions the twin fists of religion and minority control. Finally, she throws in the fact that some people are born without identifiable gender, thereby rendering these people unmarriageable under the new constitution.
The whole issue of gay rights has been one of hot debate here (independent of the constitution I mean). Almost every week there’s some letter or other in the paper either arguing for or against the rights of gay and lesbian people (we not really far enough along yet to argue anything bout transgendered people – let us wrap out heads around the gays first, nuh!). Usually the argument is against.
Paula’s letter seems to have generated some buzz. It’s been mentioned on the radio talk shows and a couple people have responded to it in this week’s papers. On Sunday last, there was an interesting discussion on a radio call-in programme. The four-person panel was made up of (if I remember correctly): the host (who’s a well-known lawyer), another famous Vincy legal eagle, the resident tutor of our UWI Open Campus (and our foremost Vincy historian) and a first-year-going-to-second-year student at Cave Hill (I know for a fact that she’s a straight A student because she’s my best friend’s niece, my past student, and also a good friend – she tells me her grades). I think there may have been one more person, but I can’t really remember.
From the sound of it, the panel all thought this particular clause was unworthy of being in the constitution. They looked at it from the legal and historical angles. How can the law proscribe the behaviour of consenting adults? How can the law “protect” something that is essentially a religious convention? A couple of the panelists approached the matter from a human rights angle.
The majority of the people who called in to the show were all in huge favour of the clause. Big surprise, right? The PM actually called in at one point (and sort of hijacked the programme for about half an hour to weigh in on the issue). He said something really important. He mentioned that he disagreed with Sabrina (the UWI student) on some of her views (actually his opinion was rather Roman Catholic – love the sinner, not the sin; and definitely legislate against the sin), but he also said that her thinking bears investigation since it may represent the views of the younger generation. And who’s going to be affected most by the new constitution anyway? Not the younger people?
And this is where I have my biggest problem with this clause and the fact that it is included in the new constitution. Historically, we’ve inherited several laws from Victorian England; the sodomy laws are among this lot. Isn’t the whole purpose of a new constitution to free us of such unsophisticated fragments of our flawed colonial past? I mean the very culture that first made these laws has since abandoned them. We, instead of doing similar, are making them more stringent.
Our government is always reminding us that we’re a modern, post-colonial society. I agree wholeheartedly. But isn’t it a bit antediluvian and colonial to make the lives of minority groups harder rather than easier by pointing out their subordinate status in a document as august as a constitution? I haven’t actually read the thing yet, by the way, so it may, possibly, say something positive elsewhere about sexuality and human rights, but I don’t know. I have to get a copy.
What happens to the generations that will follow us if their values do change? Yes, the new constitution can be amended; but why start off in so restrictive a manner that these amendments will become necessary? Haven’t we learned from the rest of the world? Instead of using this stellar opportunity to free up our laws on a more human rights basis, we are using it to cement the restrictions on an underground minority. As Paula says in her letter, the message being sent by clause 17(2) of the new constitution is that gays and lesbians are second-class citizens, undeserving of the same rights and privileges of everyone else. How can we, in a country that is supposedly in the process of development, treat people with such flagrant disregard?
Here’s the mental image I had when reading the quote from the beginning of this post. I thought of sheep and wolves. The flock of sheep will allow a lone wolf to systematically decimate its ranks. But if the sheep, in a fit of righteous ire, decided to band together, couldn’t they all turn on the wolf, and trample and bite it to smithereens? Follow my fragmentary logic here (and I realize that this analogy can just as easily be used against my theory as for it).
What if, and this is just a whim, what if the gays and lesbians of SVG were to band together and come out of their closets? What if they all decided to take to the streets and march in protest of the discrimination they face every day? Would we ridicule them? Would we point and laugh before throwing stones at them? Would they all lose their jobs and their standing in society? Or rather, would we, despite our heterosexual moral superiority, all of a sudden realize that they exist and are here for good, and need recognition and protection? Would the furor soon die down once we realize that our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters etc etc etc were marching in that parade?
I know this is merely speculation since I don’t think Vincentians – gay, straight or enamoured of livestock – will ever really band together in sufficient numbers to protest anything. Not and get results at any rate.
On a related note, another clause in the new constitution allows for religious leaders to hold political office. Apparently. Huh? Whatever happened to separation of church and state? If we have religious leaders in parliament, are we not then allowing people with a morality bias (and a congregation to placate) to dictate our lives? Doesn’t this lead us down the path of theocracy rather than democracy? But that’s a matter for another post I think. This one has already gone on too long, and I want to include Paula’s letter so you can read it for yourselves – it’s a brilliant piece of writing (better than mine for sure).
________________________________________________________
Paula’s letter:
The following is a reproduction of clause 17(2) of the Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Constitution Bill 2009: "The State shall protect marriage, which shall be a legal union only between a person who is biologically male at birth and a person who is biologically female at birth".
So it’s come to this: we are so proud of our homophobia that we want to enshrine it in our Constitution. I will probably be talking to the wind, but for whatever its worth, here goes.
I am writing because I don’t trust myself to speak. This development is so upsetting that I fear I may become at best, incoherent and at worst, abusive.
The would be framers of a Constitution worthy of our soon to be ennobled Caribbean civilization wish to keep us permanently mired in the state of being an intolerant, unkind, backwater. The professed intention of clause 17(2) is the protection of marriage. How that intention can be furthered by a constitutional provision is anybody’s guess. I cannot fathom how it can be, but I am willing to be steered in the right direction by those more perceptive than myself.
Marriage is worthy of protection. It is quite possible that it is in particular need of protection in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Our divorce rate is staggering. I often marvel at the fact that Caribbean sociologists consistently posit that marriage is relatively rare in our communities. If we aren’t getting married, who are all those people crowding the gallery of the Court House every Friday, waiting for the hearing of their divorces?
I have a not insignificant divorce practice. I, therefore, have some knowledge of the threats to marriage in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. A major threat to marriage in our society is adultery. It is certainly the cause of a disproportionate number of divorces here. The noble framers of our Constitution bill have not seen it fit to attempt to curb the behaviour of the adulterers in our society. Instead, they’ve chosen to attack the gay community. Did they sing “Boom Bye Bye” after they said their obligatory commencement prayer at the beginning of each meeting? Okay, I’m becoming abusive. See why I can’t talk?
Are the framers of the Constitution bill unaware that a significant number of gays in this society are men married to women? Are they unaware that this phenomenon exists because “stigma and discrimination” (thank you HIV awareness campaigners, I’m sure you won’t resent my borrowing of your catch phrase) forces these men to seek the cover of a socially acceptable domestic arrangement? Are they aware of how harmful these arrangements can be to both parties to a marriage and any children they may have? Don’t they know any man who lives the lie of a marriage he cannot find fulfillment in? Are they so blissfully ignorant that they have never heard of a woman who struggles to cope with the knowledge of her husband’s homosexuality; or worse, a wife who is completely unaware of her husband’s true sexual orientation until she learns of it in a very unpleasant way?
Or maybe they know and they just don’t care. The tragedy of this is that I have a nagging suspicion that the inclusion of this clause was motivated by nothing more significant than empty posturing; that it is no more than infantile attention seeking behaviour. They want it to make BBC Caribbean news. They want their 15 minutes of fame. Of course, part of the motivation most certainly is pandering to the church; the same thing that motivates Caribbean politicians to have “visiting relationships” (read Enid Clarke’s “My Mother Who Fathered Me” if you’re unfamiliar with the phrase) with various churches.
Or maybe each society needs a vulnerable community that it can beat up with impunity. Maybe it is an incurable feature of the human condition. Apartheid South Africa beat up blacks. Hitler beat up Jews. Israel beats up Palestinians. White America beats up black America. Jamaicans beat up gays. Vincentians are proposing to trump the Jamaicans.
Which brings me to my next point; how can we, the sons and daughters of slaves, bring ourselves to discriminate against any group of persons because of something they cannot help and which in the grand scheme of things is utterly insignificant? Just as we cannot help being black and just as our blackness in the grand scheme of things is utterly insignificant, so too, gays cannot help being gay and in the grand scheme of things their sexuality is utterly insignificant. I suspect that this is where the Bible thumpers will start jumping up and down. If you’re going to repeat to me the arguments I read in our local papers every week don’t bother. I’ve heard them; they’re lame. The judges’ findings of fact are not consistent with the evidence.
There are gay doctors, lawyers, street sweepers, musicians, bankers, business people and gardeners all over our society leading productive lives; each doing his or her own part to ensure that the wheels of this society keep on turning. How dare anyone attempt to accord them second class citizenship and try to enshrine it in our Constitution? How dare anyone send a message to every little gay boy and every little lesbian girl that “You are a thing apart. You are a thing unacceptable. You are a thing unworthy”?
I will end by inviting the worthy framers of our Constitution bill to consider the effect of clause 17(2) on persons who are born intersex. You have made it clear that you intend to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Do you also intend to discriminate against persons whose gender may not be capable of determination at birth?
Paula E. David






66 wonderful people responded... will you?:
Not much left to say. I don't think we as a nation are close to wrapping our minds around same sex marriage. However, I never understood why legally consenting adults sexual behaviour needed to be legislated.
Great Post Will.
I read Paula's letter and I read the responses (You should read Bassy Alexander's response in this week's Searchlight.) I am not sure how banning gay marriage is going to protect the noble institution. Would it be that by banning gay marriage then the limited store of marriage proposal's for straight people get used up? Will gay marriages encroach on the special rights and privileges of straight married people? (What are those rights by the way?) Will allowing gay marriage mean loss of income for straight married couples?
Will I can't for the life of me understand how this clause is going to protect marriage, not from a legal aspect, not from a humanitarian position, not from a religious position either.
Some might argue about not making this 'sin' legal, but it seems to me that by preventing the legal union, then you are encouraging gay fornication. (I not sure if this making sense).
I know that there are strong feelings on this issue, but I don't know if we as a people are cognizant of the impact of this type of discrimination.
We should live and let live.
If we want to protect marriage, then let's ban adultery in truth. This debate come out of no where it seems. You think is because America sneezed?
Excellent Wills. It is my belief that this clause is a political dog biscuit. It is thrown out to cause the dogs to bark and make any opposition to the constitution seem as if they are pinko homo lovin' patsys. And there is not a chance in Hades that this clause will be removed but it will cause problems for us here. As if we did not have enough problems being supporters of whaling in Japan now we have the potential be the target of a well organised gay lobby. Great for tourism eh Glen?
Several thousand years ago, the earth was flat - it was a fact.
Several hundred years ago, African Americans were second class citizens - it was a fact.
Now, gays and lesbians are second class citizens. apparently, it's a fact. Who knows where we'll be in 100 years... hopefully somewhere better than this.
Oooh. Expect a long comment before the night is out.
@ abeni: i agree that i don't think the nation is yet ready for same sex marriage... actually, i think the word "marriage" is so loaded with both religious and heterosexual undertones that perhaps the word itself is contentious...
@ empath: yeah i read bassy's letter - brilliant! :-)
i think you summed it up best when you said we should live and let live... rofl @ america sneezing... :-D
@ mrs. j: i think you have a good point re: the whole clause being used to paint opponents of the constitution in a certain light... hmmm... very intellesting mr. bond...
@ cofo: see i just don't understand why people can't figure out that logic! it just makes so much sense to me...
@ antillean: oh lord...
This is quite an interesting post, William. I think our society is a strange one. When I read Paula's letter, I didn't make much of it. There'd be responses, I wagered -- there always are. But I didn't expect anything like what you described on the panel.
I see at least three broad issues in your post. The first two -- protecting marriage and same-sex marraige -- are related and are as difficult to distinguish in your post as they are in the contentious clause. I suspect they'll be similarly difficult to distinguish in this response, but I'll try to set them apart where I can. The third is on the issue of separation of church and state. I'll start with protecting marriage in general.
It's worth noting, firstly, the entirety of section 17.
"""
17. (1) The State acknowledges the family as the natural basic group unit of society. Consequently, the State accords the family recognition, respect, protection and support; asserting that men and women of the age of civil legal and societal responsibility have the right to marry and establish a family.
(2) The State shall protect marriage, which shall be a legal union only between a person who is biologically male at birth and a person who is biologically female at birth
"""
The note in the left-hand column reads "The family". This isn't (just) about 'discriminating' against people who want to marry another person of the same sex. This is about making it clear that families are important to society. From this -- if, indeed, this clause matters as much as we're making it out to -- the government is mandated to continue supporting families, to protect everyone's right to marry, and to protect marriage.
Yes, and to protect marriage. The climate we're in makes it seem like this is purely an anti-same-sex (too many hyphens there?) marriage amendment. It is, of course, largely an anti same-sex marriage amendment. But it isn't entirely one. It sets out the norm for marriage and, in so doing, excludes many things, including same-sex marriage. Marriage is to be an exclusive union between two people -- one male and one female. This not only prohibits same-sex marriage, but it also prohibits polygamy (which is right around the corner) and other less-heard of things that some people call marriage, such as unions with animals, trees and inanimate objects. (I can provide links to news stories on people doing or wanting to do all of these if you wish.)
The next thing to note here is that the people who support this amendment aren't the only ones giving exclusive definitions on what marriage is. Perhaps they wouldn't want to put this definition into the constitution, but you can see from the language of the provision's opponents that most of them still think that marriage should be monogamous, that children shouldn't have the right to marry, and that marriage is something between two humans. It's really just a fairly modest modification of the Christian norm of marriage.
We may then note the context in which this definition of marriage occurs. You'll see that it comes on the heels of talk of the family and its importance, and on the right of everyone to marry. This strongly hints at something else -- the purpose of marriage. What is it? Well, Paula wasn't clear on what she thinks it is. She just seems to think that preventing consenting adults people from marrying someone of the same sex is discriminating against adults who want to marry someone of the same sex. That position is typical of people who think that a (or the?) purpose of marriage is for the state (or a religion) to recognise, formalise and 'bless' a union between two people who are in love with each other. That is, no doubt, part and parcel with the current understanding of marriage, but it isn't all. From the context, we can see that marriage is being linked to forming a family. 17(1) reads "men and women of the age of civil legal and societal responsibility have the right to marry and establish a family." This link between marriage and family is common sense. It is not universal (though one could argue that it should be normative), but it's common sense. It also parallels the first part of Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml), and it is quite clear from the fact that gays and lesbians fight for the right to adopt children and even for access to technology to have their own biological children.
The final thing to note here is that the mandate to protect marriage is broad. With this mandate, the provided definition of marriage, and the context of subsection 17(1) that links it to the family, a reasonable legislature and a reasonable judiciary can use this mandate to do some of the things that are mentioned, including to fight divorce and criminalise adultery (though I don't see that happening).
That just about covers the protecting marriage and same-sex marriage issue. There are some other things that you and Paula said that I should probably address, though.
I really can't say what the motivation of the drafters was, but I doubt it was to make BBC Caribbean. As you said, there is overwhelming support for this provision. If this were to be put to the ballot alone, I don't think any of us doubt it would comfortably pass the 66% threshold required. I think there may be less support among the 'young people' than the 'old people', but I doubt it would be significantly less. The origin of the amendment is apparently from the people, not drafters seeking additional airtime. The CRC's Revised Final Report of 2006 says that this amendment was proposed by many respondents. I quote from item 14 under A. General Comments (it's on page 6 of the paper version of the document that was on the government's website, page 13 in that same pdf):
"""
The seriously contentious issues in Human Rights have been the question of capital punishment and the question of same-sex marriages. The respondents have been overwhelmingly in favour of the retention of capital punishment, and virtually unanimous against the notion of same-sex marriages. Many respondents told us that they had attended consultations for the sole purpose of stating their views on those two issues.
"""
The issue is also mentioned in comment 350: Protection from Discrimination, where it is recommended (or it is noted that people recommended?) that the constitution make clear the definition of marriage as between a biological male and a biological female, and that, "in light of overwhelming public aversion to homosexuality", no further recommendations were being made. (I take it that this explains why the constitution does not add sexual orientation as a basis for claiming discrimination.) In light of this -- and the fact that every amendment like this eventually passed in every single US state where it was put to the ballot -- I think the Victorian-era origination of the law criminalising sodomy is of nearly no significance here.
I'm not sure what to make of what she says about married homosexuals. The things she describes are lamentable, but she can't really expect people who think that marriage should be between a man and a woman and that homosexual activity is wrong to agree with her that a way to fix this is to leave open the way legalise same-sex unions. Clearly, the truly homophobic won't care to address those issues. I'm not homophobic. I think that those things would be addressed if homosexual actions were treated like the more popular fornications, but I no more think that we should fail to establish a norm for marriage that excludes same-sex marriages than I think that, because of adultery and pre-marital sex, we should do away with marriage altogether.
For me, this isn't about beating up homosexuals.
She says that the issue is utterly insignificant in the grand scheme things. Obviously, none of us think it is. She wouldn't write the letter if she thought it were, and the seriousness of the orthodox Christian position on fornication is well-known.
I really, really don't see how prohibiting same-sex marriage amounts to according homosexuals second-class citizenship. Like every other usable word, 'marriage' has to be defined if it is to have any meaning, and it is in the nature of a definition to exclude some things when it carves out space for itself. Is she saying that her definition of marriage accords second-class citizenship to the people whose relationships it doesn't legitimise?
The issue of the intersexed is an interesting one. Firstly, though, it should be noted that the constitutional definition clearly deals with someone's sex and not his/her gender. The clear intention is to prevent those who undergo gender reassignment from marrying someone based on their reassigned gender. As far as I know, the biological definition of sex is concrete and immutable. The same isn't the case for gender. That being said though, the case of the intersexed must be considered, but that asks for a more fundamental redefinition of our understandings of sex. My preliminary statement would be that the intersexed are legally assigned a sex based on biological characteristics and would therefore be able to marry someone of the other sex.
I think that addresses most of the points in her letter. Now for the other ones in your post.
The law proscribes the behaviour of consenting adults all the time. But this isn't even about that. This provision doesn't outlaw sodomy; it outlaws same-sex marriage. Marriage is obviously more than a religious convention -- that's why (almost?) every country in the world recognises it and accords married couples special benefits. The human rights angle is interesting, but there are some people's rights that are often ignored -- the children's. It seems that France is, for the moment, holding out on legalising same-sex marriage and on granting same-sex couples adoption rights on the basis of the rights of the child. And I'm fairly certain that Sabrina's views on this issue do not represent the younger generation.
Finally, the matter of separation of church and state. Nothing happened to it because it never existed in St Vincent. In fact, I think it's only constitutionally required in three countries -- France, Turkey and the USA. Despie that, it's true that most developed countries have a de facto separation of church and state in most matters, and that even in the cases where they have state churches. Consider the case of the UK, where the Church of England holds seats in the House of Commons. I'm not sure what you mean by a 'morality bias', and even with my best guess as to your meaning, I don't know the point you wish to make with it.
Yeah, this can lead us down the path to theocracy. But, then again, secularism can lead us down the path to Stalin-like communism.
Kamal Wood
Abeni: That's a loaded wondering there. You basically carved out a nice space for the set of relationships that you think shouldn't be legislated. There isn't really anything wrong with that, but someone who has a broader definition of what is acceptable sexual behaviour could just as easily wonder something more along her lines and less along yours. Maybe, for example, she could wonder why the age of consent is at 16 and not lower, and as to why consenting sexual behaviour between anyone -- adult or children -- needed to be legislated.
Empath: As far as protecting it goes, some argue that the rationale for legalising same-sex marriage can and will be used to legalise so many other types that, eventually, marriage will be difficult or impossible to regulate and states will stop recognising them. Others say that when the special status of something like marriage is denigrated, that disincentivises people from entering it.
As for gay fornication: in orthodox Christian theology, all homosexual sex is fornication. There is no such thing as a same-sex marriage, so there can be no non-fornicative homosexual acts.
The call to constitutionally ban adultery isn't directly analogous to the prohibition on same-sex marriage. Prohibiting same-sex (and other non-monogamous, human-only marriages) merely amounts to not recognising them as we recognise marriages. We already don't recognise adulterous unions.
This probably is from an American cold, but the US isn't the only country in the world where there's a push to legalise same-sex marriage. It's sort've a pre-emptive strike. I suspect that, at this point any conservative-ish society like ours would include something like that in a constitutional amendment process like this one.
Cofo: The roundness of the earth for the last few million years is an immutable, scientific fact. That African Americans were second-class citizens was a mutable, legal fact.
And oh, William, I can send you and anyone else who wants them the:
1. The current constitution (though that's just a Google search away).
2. The proposed constitution. This is on the government website (http://www.gov.vc) in a difficult-to-manage form. I have it in a single document.
3. The Constitutional Review Commission's revised final report.
4. The Prime Minister's statement when the bill to reform the constitution was introduced. That statement was printed in the papers the week following that introduction. It gives a nice overview of the major changes to the constitution.
Kamal
A measured academic response from Antillean. However, I would still like to find out, directly and specifically, what are his views on the clause in question. And what about the other part of Paula's letter re: people whose sex is not distinguished at birth for whatever biological reason?
Uh, William, I think I forgot to post or you forgot to approve one of my comments. It's supposed to be between the one that ends with the quotation and the one that begins "I think that addresses most of the points in her letter." It reads:
*****
The issue is also mentioned in comment 350: Protection from Discrimination, where it is recommended (or it is noted that people recommended?) that the constitution make clear the definition of marriage as between a biological male and a biological female, and that, "in light of overwhelming public aversion to homosexuality", no further recommendations were being made. (I take it that this explains why the constitution does not add sexual orientation as a basis for claiming discrimination.) In light of this -- and the fact that every amendment like this eventually passed in every single US state where it was put to the ballot -- I think the Victorian-era origination of the law criminalising sodomy is of nearly no significance here.
I'm not sure what to make of what she says about married homosexuals. The things she describes are lamentable, but she can't really expect people who think that marriage should be between a man and a woman and that homosexual activity is wrong to agree with her that a way to fix this is to leave open the way legalise same-sex unions. Clearly, the truly homophobic won't care to address those issues. I'm not homophobic. I think that those things would be addressed if homosexual actions were treated like the more popular fornications, but I no more think that we should fail to establish a norm for marriage that excludes same-sex marriages than I think that, because of adultery and pre-marital sex, we should do away with marriage altogether.
For me, this isn't about beating up homosexuals.
She says that the issue is utterly insignificant in the grand scheme things. Obviously, none of us think it is. She wouldn't write the letter if she thought it were, and the seriousness of the orthodox Christian position on fornication is well-known.
I really, really don't see how prohibiting same-sex marriage amounts to according homosexuals second-class citizenship. Like every other usable word, 'marriage' has to be defined if it is to have any meaning, and it is in the nature of a definition to exclude some things when it carves out space for itself. Is she saying that her definition of marriage accords second-class citizenship to the people whose relationships it doesn't legitimise?
The issue of the intersexed is an interesting one. Firstly, though, it should be noted that the constitutional definition clearly deals with someone's sex and not his/her gender. The clear intention is to prevent those who undergo gender reassignment from marrying someone based on their reassigned gender. As far as I know, the biological definition of sex is concrete and immutable. The same isn't the case for gender. That being said though, the case of the intersexed must be considered, but that asks for a more fundamental redefinition of our understandings of sex. My preliminary statement would be that the intersexed are legally assigned a sex based on biological characteristics and would therefore be able to marry someone of the other sex.
wow kamal... erm... what a loooong response... :-P
like empath said, very academic and measured... very well thought out... thing is, where's the human passion? you're very good at logic... you're very good at looking at the angles and planes of a situation... but i've never really seen any passion or verve in your responses (admittedly, it's only here and on the facebook vincy vip group that i've ever read your arguments... and i've not been on the vip group in a long time)... sometimes we need to ignore what our head tells us and just go with our gut tells us... as you can no doubt tell, i rarely use my head (except in class)...
i agree with you on several of your points, but this post was a gut response to something that i think is unfair... yes there are broader issues than the one i've broached here, but i chose not to delve into them... i chose to focus on the ideas that paula's letter brought to my mind... for the purposes of the post, everything else is immaterial... does that negate my view or make it somehow void? i think not since the concerns raised are, indeed, valid...
like i said in response to abeni, i think the word "marriage" is so loaded with heterosexual, religious overtones that perhaps it has come to represent something emotional rather than dispassionate... the word has connotations that, in themselves, render the whole subject contentious...
i think one of the biggest problems i have is that the state shouldn't have to "protect" the institution of "marriage"... especially when that same state defines marriage so stringently... if the state were really protecting marriage, then there should be many more clauses in there other than the one that makes it clear that "marriage" is for men and women, who want to marry the opposite sex, and who are born with identifiable genitalia... i've been perusing the new constitution... there's no other mention of sexuality thus far in my reading... i'm not even sure if this clause is about sexuality or about biology... sexuality implies more than just the accouterments of the sex act...
you mentioned that in our current constitution there is nothing saying that church and state should be separate... BUT, article 26(1)b. says that ministers of religion are disqualified from holding parliamentary posts... doesn't this imply that religious leaders are separate from political leaders? doesn't it also imply that the church has no business in running the state? it's not said, but it's certainly one of the conclusions you can draw... and we're allowed to draw conclusions since nothing else is said to make it any clearer...
by morality bias i mean that religious leaders have a leaning towards a certain set of values based on whatever their church teaches... having religious leaders in parliament opens us up to the possibility that decisions will be made based on church teaching more than anything else... i'm sure this happens already, since most, if not all of our parliamentarians claim to be christian... but having a man with a flock in a position where he is also leading people in the secular realm is dangerous and may even be a conflict of interests...
anyway... all this aside... i'm going to go with empath here and ask the question: what are your actual views on the clause? do you think it's fair? do you think it should be included in our constitution? and give me a why/why not as well... ;-)
ps - tell your brother that i wrote a post that he requested and he didn't even comment! i'm trying to overcome the emotional scarring this has caused me... :-P
oh wait... and another thing... how can we have a referendum to vote on the constitution in its entirety? shouldn't a true mark of our views be a massive book allowing us to vote on each and every clause so that we can vote for the things we want and against the other stuff? there's much in the new constitution that i like and agree with - more than i disagree with... but i don't necessarily want to vote "yes" on the whole thing... so i'm in a conundrum - do i vote yes, and accept something that i think is flawed, or do i vote no and do away with the thing entirely??? i am not opposed to the thing entirely... so where does that leave me?
and just so my thoughts aren't misconstrued - this is not a political decision or problem for me, because i don't see a constitution as a political document... it's a personal decision about a legal document... people here often forget that and assume that all opinions on nation building are politically motivated...
I support the amendment. In fact, I think it may not go far enough. As far as I can tell, it may still leave open the option for civil unions that grant the same benefits as marriage. That's ultimately about as unacceptable for most opponents of same-sex marriage as it is for most proponents of same-sex marriage.
But I have another issue. It appears that section 17 and the majority of the rest of Chapter II will be non-justicialbe. From my understanding of the use of that term in this context, that means that courts cannot directly enforce provisions in that chapter. The example I was given was the right of privacy in some Commonwealth Caribbean constitutions. In some constitutions (not ours), that right is only contained in the constitution's preamble. Since the preamble is non-justiciable, citizens cannot claim that right.
The situation here is similar in some ways and different in others. Section 24 (the last section of Chapter II) reads:
The provisions of this Chapter constitute constitutional norms appropriate for the guidance of the actions of organs of the State and other public authorities, being of the nature of guiding principles of State policy.
Now I'm not sure what all this means except this: it isn't a straightforward statement of the definition of marriage as, say, the amendment to the constitution of the US state of Louisiana ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Constitutional_Amendment_1_(2004) ). Maybe this may leave room for a workaround? I really don't know.
Empath, I did respond to the other part of Paula's letter. I don't know if it got lost in the midst of the other responses I sent. I posted the entire response to my blog (http://antillean.blogspot.com/2009/06/defining-marriage-in-our-constitution.html) so you should be able to see it there.
Will
Hahaha, don't worry, I feel as much as the next person. But when I get into things like this, I try to be as rational as possible. My feelings influence my thoughts, but I try as far as possible to control when I let that show. I felt the emotional force behind Paula's argument (especially that paragraph about homosexual men who are married to women) and your post, and I am not unmoved. But ultimately, without enough rational support, it's not hard for me to move back to where I was before I read arguments with almost only emotional force.
I don't think that your focus on the particular issues that you chose to focus on negates your views or makes your points void. I just think that in these debates we too often find ourselves debating these things without an appropriate framework or, far worse, with the unconscious assumption of our opponent's framework.
(cont'd)
(cont'd)
You're right about the connotations about marriage. Interestingly, though, it seems that some of those connotations are precisely the reason why many gays and lesbians in countries like the US and Canada want marriage and not just civil unions with all the benefits of marriage.
There needn't be more clauses specifying how the state should protect marriage. As I said above, the provisions of Chapter II are meant to be guiding principles. They lay a rough framework within which parliament and the executive may then work, and they set general goals towards which we can all strive. The clause is about sexuality, biology and reproduction, since any comprehensive talk of marriage and family must cover all those things.
You're right that the prohibition of clergy from parliament amounts to a separation of church and state on at least one issue. What I meant is that there has never been any general commitment to the principle of the separation of church and state. That principle just isn't a bedrock of most democracies. I'm not sure why the British drafters of the current constitution put in that restriction; perhaps it's for some of the reasons that you give. As to the charge that there may be a dangerous conflict of interest: I suppose that may be, but I'm not sure it outweighs the other benefits of having such a minister in government. Really, though, I haven't given this change much thought.
I'd also prefer not to have to say either 'Yes' to all or 'No' to all, but I'm not sure that we should be asked to vote for each provision individually. That sounds impractical for a number of reasons, two of which I can think of right now. One is that some provisions are integrally related. There may then be problems if one provision of a set of integrally related ones is not approved while the others are approved. The second reason is that there are many, many changes. Even if our population were generally well-educated, there's no reason to think that we're all capable of seriously processing the kind of information that would be required to give each of these provisions the thought that it needs. We may also risk overloading people with information and requests. Further, stretching the referendum over too long a period would be expensive, would probably result in declining turnout rates over time, and would be inconvenient for students and others like me who want to come home to vote for the referendum.
The best option may be a compromise. Have the drafters of the new constitution group the amendments into reasonable sets and have people vote on those sets. If done right, that should allow the system to more accurately measure the electorate's views on the new constitution without causing the overload that may result from having too many choices and the apathy that may result from having a long referendum.
(On an interesting sidenote, I think being asked to vote yes or no for the entire document is rather similar to when we're asked to vote for representatives. In those elections, if we choose to vote, we vote for one candidate over others, effectively supporting all of that candidate's principles, policies, views and even character traits regardless of what we may think about individual aspects of his candidacy.)
And haha, I told Javal. He actually saw it around the time you posted it and showed it to me. I had started to write a response to it but didn't finish for some reason. I guess something similar may have happened to him.
Just thought I should start off with the caution my 16 year old daughter just shared with me. Having noticed how intense my mood was as I sat typing she asked me what I was writing. I told her that I was making another contribution to the same sex marriage debate. In a very tender, concerned tone she said, “You are too intense. You should go have some herbal tea”. I almost fell off my chair laughing. She looked a little embarrassed but smiled encouragingly in response. Do I have the best kid or do I have the best kid?
1. Kamal, I am addressing you primarily tonight. The others of us who have responded to William’s blog are obviously choir members; they know the order of mass as well as I do. I need not, therefore, address them. So that we start off our relationship honestly and without misapprehensions, I will confess to you at the outset that I do not usually address members of the religious right. I don’t know many members of that group who are in the habit of thinking outside the box and I find conversations with them singularly uninteresting. I prefer to have conversations with persons who are capable of original thought. I have decided to take a leap of faith in your case.
2. You have set out clause 17 in its entirety. You have accepted the justification which the framers of the bill intend for you to accept. That is, you believe that the purpose of clause 17 is to recognize, respect, protect and support the family. So let’s take a close look at clause 17. Note carefully that the anti same sex marriage provision is directly linked to the protection of the family declaration. That is no accident. It is a deliberate legal drafting technique. The manner in which clause 17 is drafted is a direction to judges that sub-clauses 1 and 2 must be read together. It tells judges that the two sub-clauses are an inseparable whole. Note well that clause 23 which mandates that children born out of wedlock are entitled to the same legal rights as children born in wedlock appears six clauses later. There is no “marriage” of clause 23 to clause 17 (bad pun intended) although clause 23 addresses a serious family law protection issue. The question which naturally arises is, why are sub-clauses 17(1) and 17(2) inextricably bound to one another? The answer is this, clause 17(1) is merely a pretext for introducing the anti same sex marriage prohibition sub-clause. It is put there to mask the stench of the homophobic intention behind sub-clause (2).
3. A useful test of the bona fides of the intention behind clause 17 is the glaring omission of any protection for parties to a de facto marriage (what non lawyers call “common law marriage”, I prefer not to use that phrase as it is legally inaccurate). De facto marriages are an important cultural reality which the laws of the Commonwealth Caribbean have never adequately addressed. Barbados has made some strides in this regard but even their legislation does not close the chasm between parties to legal marriages and parties to de facto marriages. All Caribbean lawyers know that this is a glaring gap in our body of laws. The failure of the various legislatures of the Commonwealth Caribbean to pass legislation granting protection to family units in which the adult parties are not formally married causes tremendous hardship to many families; yet despite the presence of two Queen’s Counsel on the panel of the Constitutional Committee, this was not even vaguely alluded to, let alone addressed in our Constitution bill.
4. You take issue with me for not being clear on what I envision marriage to be. Take heart my sweet, like you, I consider marriage not just a legal bond between adults who love each other; I also consider marriage to be an appropriate basis for the formation of families. You and I only part company when you go on to assume that gays and or lesbian couples would be bad or dangerous parents. Quite frankly, gays and lesbians do not need to be married in order to have children and live in family units with their children. Having a baby is a fairly easy thing to do. Gays do not need to adopt in order to have children. They also don’t need “access to technology”. I know several gays and lesbians who are parents. Like heterosexuals, some are good parents, some are bad parents and some are indifferent parents.
5. It is interesting that you interpret clause 17(2) as a prohibition against polygamy. I don’t share your sense of certainty in this regard. The bill does not specifically exclude polygamy. It would only do so if it said that marriage can only be entered into by one unmarried male and one unmarried female. As it is written, there is nothing to prohibit a married “person who is biologically male at birth” from marrying a married person who is “biologically female at birth”.
6. Please help me to follow your argument that polygamy is“just around the corner and other less heard of things that some people call marriage such as unions with animals, trees and inanimate objects”. Are you suggesting that if marriage is not restricted as clause 17(2) seeks to restrict it, the floodgates will open, all hell will break loose and people will demand polygamous marriage as well as marriage to “animals, trees and inanimate objects”? Do I detect a suggestion that marriage between two consenting adult humans of the same sex is somehow to be equated to marriage between a human and an animal or a human and a tree? If this is your suggestion please tell me how the two things are to be equated as I have serious perception problems in this regard.
7. You note that opponents of clause 17(2) would not want to put a definition of marriage in the Constitution. As a matter of fact, I know of no Constitution of any democratic state which includes a definition of marriage. The Constitutional tradition which we subscribe to does not deny rights, it confers and guarantees them. This is one of the things which makes clause 17(2) so egregious. In our homophobic zeal, we are prepared to depart from our Constitutional tradition of guaranteeing rights, protections and freedoms in order to chase a phantom threat.
8. When I spoke of the motivations of the framers of our Constitution bill, I did so from the standpoint of a person who has known certain members of the Constitutional committee for 19 years. I was not speaking flippantly when I mentioned a preoccupation with infantile attention seeking.
9. I am perplexed by your very bold pronouncement that there has never been a separation of the church and state in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. The fact that our Constitution does not contain a statement to the effect of “the church and the state shall be separate” does not mean that the church and state are only de facto separate. The Constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion and freedom of conscience amount to a de jure separation of state and church. Under our present Constitution as well as the Constitution Bill 2009, our freedom to have religious convictions of any specie or to not have any religious conviction is accorded equal protection. The freedom of religion and freedom of conscience guarantees apply equally to Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Atheists. I will tell you that a Court would have a difficult time defending the constitutionality of our present Marriage Act if a Muslim were to bring an action for a declaration that its non recognition of his polygamous marriages is an unjustifiable fetter on his freedoms of conscience and religion.
10. I am relieved that you appear to accept that an attempt by the framers of the Constitution Bill to enshrine Christian values in our Constitution smacks of theocracy. You appear to justify the back door imposition of values which are based purely on religious sentiment in the highest body of laws in our country by suggesting that “secularism can lead us down the path of Stalin like Communism”. To be honest Kamal, I have a great deal of difficulty with your reasoning because so much of it is non-linear and reliant on fear mongering. This is what I find most exasperating when speaking to the religious right. Clearly, secularism does not lead to Stalin like Communism. Secularism is such an important facet of the democratic, Capitalist United States of America that it is enshrined in the US Constitution. It was not secularism which gave rise to Stalinist Communism. Stalinist Communism arose due to a complex mixture of historical, political and economic factors which had nothing to do with secularism.
11. It is now mid-night and I have a full day of work tomorrow. I am therefore about to sign off. I’d like to invite Kamal to consider whether clause 17(2) is not a serious affront to human dignity; whether it does not send a message to gays and lesbians that they are pariahs. I'd like you to consider whether it is not, to say the very least, inappropriate, for a Constitution of a democratic country to send a message to a group of its citizens that that group is so despised that it is just and right to single them out for attack and denial of dignity. It may surprise you that it is not so much the marriage issue which offends me; people do not have to be married in order to live in a stable, loving family unit. What is particularly offensive is the message behind the prohibition of same sex marriage.
12. I trust that I am not asking too much of a member of the religious right to consider the humanity of gays and lesbians. After all, the Bible says gays and lesbians are “abominations” (or does it? I remember seeing a very direct prohibition somewhere in the 10 Commandments against adultery, I don’t recall any prohibition in the 10 Commandments against homosexuality). At any rate, I am mindful that the religious right consider all things Biblical unchallengeable givens. If I have free time in the near future, with William’s permission, I’ll post some comments on internal contradictions and plain nonsense in the Bible.
Wow, great post Will! going to fbk it. pl always tweet yr new posts so we know wnen to check.
the comments look rich, haven't read yet but look forward to it...
this needs to be read in Jamaica.
Not in a position right now to expound as I would love to but suffice to say I look forward to Paula's treatise on the Bible's "directives". Be sure to point out the many instances that support slavery and the confirmation of women as second-class citizens. Oh, oh, and don't forget the denounciation of pork while you are at it.
That we, 2000 years and many socially evolved generations later, look to a book written by men for the basis of our *civilisation* baffles and confounds me everyday.
Paula, before I begin, I'd just like to draw attention again to the fact that one of my posts did not make it. You didn't refer to one or two of the big issues in it, so I'm taking that to mean that you haven't seen it. My whole response, including that missing section, is here: http://antillean.blogspot.com/2009/06/defining-marriage-in-our-constitution.html.
1. I don't think I've ever heard the phrase 'religious right' used to describe a West Indian writing in the West Indies about a West Indian political issue. It seems a bit strange to use that distinctly American phrase in a society where almost the entire spectrum is at least nominally religious and where we can only be described to the right -- in American terms of what 'the right' is, in any case -- on social issues.
Having said that, I think everyone would benefit if neither of us pretended that s/he or the other were an automaton who just reasons within the rails within which she's accustomed to reasoning. Anyone who has followed more than one of these debates for more than twenty-five minutes should know that, despite not having a 1900 year-old document and centuries of tradition to appeal to, the opinions of many proponents of things like same-sex marriage in the West are as codified as any Christian dogma. The arguments you present here can be accepted as further evidence of this.
2. Hahaha, it looks as though you'll describe any rationale for denying marriage between two people of the same sex as homophobic. :)
How will the interpretation of Section 23 be affected by it not being a subsection of Section 17? Do you think Section 23's placement there and on its own has anything to do with Section 22?
3. That does sound like quite the omission, but I don't see why it would be a test of the kind of intention behind the clause.
4. Our only point of departure is not in the quality of parents that I think gays and lesbians will make. We also depart in, it seems, the link between marriage and forming a family. I'm surprised that this is the case.
All same-sex couples are infertile. It is impossible for both parties of a gay or lesbian couple to be the biological parents of a child without technological intervention. Surely you aren't denying this. So yes, having a baby is a fairly easy thing to do...for fertile opposite-sex couples, but it isn't so easy for same-sex couples. How would a gay couple 'have children' if at least one of them doesn't adopt?
5. You're absolutely right.
6. The restriction doesn't have to be as it is in Subsection 17(2). I imagine that a Muslim-majority democracy (that isn't too Westernised/Christianised) would carve a careful definition that allows polygamy.
My argument runs thus: this amendment defines marriage in fairly specific terms. In so doing, it excludes certain things that some would like to call marriage, including polygamy (by its spirit if not its letter) and the other unions I mentioned. The idea of that paragraph is to set out that the amendment isn't purely an anti same-sex marriage amendment.
So yes, I am drawing similarities between same-sex marriage (and heterosexual polygamous marriages, for that matter) and marriages to non-human animals. The similarity is drawn with two strokes: the first is that they're both outside of the norm defined by this amendment, and the second is that they both fall within the acceptable definitions of some people. Most people who draw similarities usually don't intend to draw equivalencies when they do so; I'm no different here.
(1 of 3, cont'd)
(2 of 3, cont'd)
7. I know of one democratic country whose constitution includes a definition of marriage -- Bolivia ( http://hunterforjustice.typepad.com/hunter_of_justice/2009/02/new-bolivian-constitution-bans-discrimination-limits-marriage.html?cid=6a00e553bc36a38834011570db7ac0970b ). We both also know of the 30 or so American states whose constitutions now have such a definition. These amendment are recent, though. (And haha, based on Article 63(2), I guess Bolivians aren't as homophobic as we are? :D)
The reason for the general absence is obvious. Before the late 20th century, almost no one in the West contested that marriage is and should be between a man and a woman. Until the 1990s, almost no one imagined that there'd be a need to define marriage as between a man and a woman. This isn't the first or only provision in a constitution that was only added when it appeared that there was a need to add it.
And which right is this denying? Section 17 establishes a right to marry (is there such a right in the current constitution?) and places restrictions on it (age, number and sex of parties). Isn't that "There is a right to x, but this right does not include" formula broadly how rights are laid out and interpreted in modern constitutions?
8. Fair enough. But how does this affect my arguments on the origin of the amendment?
9. I don't think this argument holds. How does saying that people shall have the freedom of religion and the freedom of conscience amount to saying that the government shall be secular, or that no law shall be passed supporting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or something like that? On the contrary, it's clear by the example of many countries with state churches (the UK, the Netherlands, Sweden etc) that one can have freedom of religion, freedom of conscience and de jure integration of church and state. It's clear from the history and/or reality in the Commonwealth Caribbean, Latin America, Africa, North America, Europe, Australasia and the other European children scattered around the world that a de facto integration of church and state does not necessarily violate the principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of religion.
Really, it's a liberal egocentric American myth that separation of church and state and freedom of religion are inseparable.
10. You're right that Stalinist Communism arose due to a complex mixture of factors. But so too did all of the (2?) theocracies in the world. My response was slightly tongue-in-cheek. Yes, this can lead us down the path to theocracy, just as secularism can lead us down the path to Stalin-like communism, but neither of these has ever happened. I don't know of any democratic country that has been transformed into a theocracy by legal means like these any more than I know of any democratic country that has been transformed into an oppressively secular state like Stalin's USSR.
Part of my point was that, in the same way that secularism can be used in such starkly different ways as in the USA and the USSR, Christian influences on a government can be used in very, very different ways. Just as there may be de jure or de facto Secular Democracies, there may be de jure or de facto Christian Democracies, or Islamic Democracies, or Hindu Democracies. Because of the character of these religions and the character of democracies in today's world, one would probably find oneself adopting the religions in different ways -- just as one would find oneself adopting secularism in different ways. But that doesn't mean that the democracies would necessarily be any less democratic.
(2 of 3, cont'd)
(3 of 3, cont'd)
I did not state or suggest that enshrining Christian values in our constitution smacks of theocracy. That would be silly; Christian values are already enshrined in the constitutions of the majority of the world's democracies and in such prominent documents as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam#History). :)
11. I'm sure you know where I stand on all of those things.
12. You may not be aware, but much of the intellectual Christian opposition to same-sex marriage is motivated by just that -- a consideration of the humanity of gays and lesbians. We are the ones who advocate love for a person and hate for those actions of hers that we find morally reprehensible; you are the ones who, with your cloudy, emotional rhetoric, conflate condemning and disallowing the actions by which some define a person with hating and dehumanising that person.
Leviticus 18:12 and 20:13 say that the act of a man lying with another man is an abomination ("Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" and "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" as rendered by the KJV). You're right about adultery and homosexuality in the 10 Commandments. I think it would greatly risk derailing the discussion, but I have no objections to you commenting on "internal contradictions and plain nonsense in the Bible".
Kamal
Maybe the word "Marriage" bears to much religious history, it comes with the weight of doctrinal dogma and the encumbrance of family and since gays and lesbians cant contribute to the antiquated idea of what a family is then maybe another word should be considered.
I cant speak the political talk because I am not versed in the etiquette or jargon but I can speak as a lesbian who has been struggling with coming to terms with the reconciliation of my growth versus the realization of my country. I have been in a committed/monogamous relationship for many years and was left with no choice but to abandon my chance of finding any sort of future here. Why should the law obliterate all chance of me finding love and raising a family on my soil? How does two women/men raising a child change the institution of a family? How can I regard this clause as anything but a one way ticket to me leaving my home to find somewhere adequate, a place where i am protected. Another home.
Another thing I have a problem when church and the state mixes, in all law making there should be stringent boundaries recognized and upheld. If not where will we be in 20 years? We all know the history of religion and law making and how it is has never done anything but separate people, culturally and socially. We should seek to study history and understand that morality isn't dictated by religion only.
One very important message above made by the PM is in fact taking into consideration this generation and how we are progressing and changing. If this clause is indeed passed and amended to the improved constitution it will not only cement bigotry but it will destroy trust, families and communities. Let us not be so naive and think that our nation is unlike most others, there is a considerable LGB community who are living lives that are contrary to their sexuality because they will be ridiculed, treated like sinners and second class citizens and hence victims.
Have we not turned many a chapter and broken away from ideologies that would condemn minorities? Have we not considered how this will affect a substantial percent of the population? A study done in 2006 in the USA found that 1 in every 10 individuals is LGB, that means that in St. Vincent there is an estimated 15,000 LGB's. This # doesn't strike me as a minority, and further more it saddens me to know that so many people are living lives that are a lie, lives unfulfilled and lives that aren't really theirs.
But trust the LGB community in St. Vincent to follow the status quo and remain silent. After all who would consider coming out in this hostile/ violent environment? We might be gay but we aren't stupid, some of us anyway ;). I have given up considering that Same Sex Marriage or Civil Unions will be rationally considered objectively and logically by our political "ministers" or the general public. So I loose yet again. Coming "home" just makes my insides turn and sorrow abound.
The new clause will deny me of my right as a human being. I will not consider this as an option for me as I REFUSE TO BE MAN-HANDLED or MANIPULATED BY HATE AND FEAR. Not to mention that the inclusion of this clause clause will contradict everything I stand for; Liberty, Justice, Fairness, Harmony, Peace, Community, Family, Honesty, Love...the list goes on.
H
A fascinating read - from all aspects. I confess to not knowing what our constitution in St. Lucia says in these regards, I feel I should check into it...
I'm glad that Paula addressed the issue of the family being seen as the legal 2 married and their kids, when the unmarried mother or parents is really the norm, or at least a very big segment of our societies and is so badly catered for in rights and protection.
Largely, as societies we remain hypocritical,living one reality and voicing another. This clause just epitomizes that.
Even for those that still argue that sexual orientation is a choice not a biological given, there is still the issue of mandating moral based law to consenting adults.
Instead of supporting those that openly act in consent with each other, we by omission, condone those that outwardly pretend to 'moral' lives and commit legal, moral and religious wrongs under that cover.
We have a long way to go.
Thank you for your response, Paula. You've jump-started the restoration of my faith in humanity.
"If I have free time in the near future, with William’s permission, I’ll post some comments on internal contradictions and plain nonsense in the Bible."
Paula, I've seen many such attempts in the past, and without exception they tend to rely on the wilful misinterpretation of what is an ancient and complex document.
One can find ignorant Christians who share those misinterpretations, of course, but that doesn't prove anything either.
One common error among conservative fundamentalist Christians is the claim of strict literal inerrancy. This is a modern heresy. Christians from previous ages treated the Bible as a poetic, mystical document with layers of meaning. The idea that one can treat it as if it were a sixth grade biology textbook is so nonsensical that I'm surprised to see Christians and atheists agreeing to deal with the Bible on those terms.
@ kamal: ok... so i get it... i don't agree with you on everything... but i get it... and just cos the americans use "religious right" doesn't mean it's not applicable as a description of one's political leanings in other coutries... :-P
@ paula: well... there's not much left to say really... :-)
@ annie: thanks! :-) yes some very involved commenting on this one... i'll tweet my posts if they're any good... :-P
@ bbb: it still comes as a shock to my students when i tell them that the bible is not a valid text for use in academic research... well... unless you're researching the bible that is...
@ hbynoe: i agree with you that there should be a word other than marriage since marriage has such connotations... i think we can definitely learn from your experience - here is someone who loves her country, who WANTS to support her country, but who has been rejected by her country based on... what??? some spurious notion of "normality" and "acceptability"?
i think your response is just what this debate needs - the opinion of someone who is DIRECTLY affected by the clause...
@ finola: very well said... thanks for weighing in... i especially love the way you've put this: "
Instead of supporting those that openly act in consent with each other, we by omission, condone those that outwardly pretend to 'moral' lives and commit legal, moral and religious wrongs under that cover."... this is such a truism for so much that happens in the region...
@ guttaperk: you never i never considered that... it's so true... the literal reading of the bible is relatively modern phenomenon... hmmmm... what, then, does that say about the state of christianity today in general? is it less enlightened than in the past?
@ kamal: the missing comment has been found... dunno where it went to - i usually just click "post" when a new one is e-mailed... hmmm...
Antilliean:
"You may not be aware, but much of the intellectual Christian opposition to same-sex marriage is motivated by just that -- a consideration of the humanity of gays and lesbians. We are the ones who advocate love for a person and hate for those actions of hers that we find morally reprehensible; you are the ones who, with your cloudy, emotional rhetoric, conflate condemning and disallowing the actions by which some define a person with hating and dehumanising that person."
You may be right in your suggestion that Christianity advocates loving the sinner and hating the sin. But you must also realize that by enshrining laws in our constitution that deprives the LGB community of the freedoms as the rest of the society, the clause will in effect discriminate against them. There is no two ways about that. Additionally, your quote of Leviticus, about putting the 'sinners' to death does not inspire confidence in your professed recognition of the humanity of LGBs. Who is to say that it is not these same verses were floating in the minds of the drafters of this bill.
If opponents to the bill conflate the disallowing and condemning of the bill with dehumanising, then I would say it is only because we see very little difference between the drafting of the bill and the sentiments behind verses of Leviticus that you have quoted.
Finally, your arguments are fraught with slippery slope fallacies and amount to fear mongering in the end. Perhaps if you could provide an example of a country where they have legalized or recognized same sex unions and where this legalization led or opened the doorway or allowed for the recognition of other 'non-normal' unions perhaps you may inspire more confidence in your reasoning.
In the end it perhaps best to live and let live.
Wow. Sooo much to read and digest.
As an aside, this is why I often have an issue with Global Voices.
*wonders to myself why it wasn't picked up in pretty much the same way I wondered why the archealogical find at Argyle wasn't"
blahblohblog:
The Bible is an ancient document of history, poetry, ancient law, morality, and theology. If carefully studied, there is much wisdom within the Bible. It shouldn't be dismissed because it is misused, and it shouldn't be dismissed because it's old.
My problem with fundamentalist attempts to institute Bible-based law is that the attempts in question are too often ignorant, heavy-handed, and unethical by both Biblical and secular standards. It's been said before, but too many people who claim to follow Jesus seem to be modelling their actual approach after the folk who killed Him.
Will, I wouldn't be comfortable in generalising that Christians are now less enlightened; nor do I think that lazy thinking is in any way restricted to the religious. It's part of the human condition.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1332
Empath, I think that part of the issue is that "Live and let live" as an ideal is to some degree incompatible with the function of law as many people see it. For many, the function of laws is to do the exact opposite of what you cite; for them, laws and constitutions exist to concretize what is acceptable and what is not.
I can accept that as a reasonable take on the function of law, but I think that the boundaries should be drawn based on wider social consensus– not on the basis of one religious group, even if that group forms a majority.
@ empath: you have a good point... same sex marriage is legal in some places, and to my knowledge it hasn't opened the door to people marrying trees or pigeons...
@ abeni: how DOES a post get picked up by GV anyway? hmmm... i really would like the situation re: our new constitution to generate some discussion in the region as well as locally...
They have some topics such as history,governance,breaking news etc under which they fit posts. Then it comes down to their reporter's discretion which probably makes my gripe meaningless:)
The Caribbean lives in the past on many of these social issues, hiding being an oppressive religion and a dichotimised machismo culture. It is embarrasing for me to sometimes have to represent the Caribbean at international meetings regarding some human rights issues. These are ways that governments (and people in power) can fool the people into believing these are really important issues rather than deal with development, corruption, poverty, crime etc. The international views on these kinds of homophobic societies and laws are slowly changing. I can see the difference in the human rights council as the High Commissioner for Human Rights (a former victim of aparthied i may add) is for rights for LGBT people. Just last week there was a high level seminar here in geneva on these issues- that would never have happened 5 years ago. Over 80 countries have signed a resolution at the UN in NY saying that there should be no discrimination against LGBT- including European countries, Gabon, Brazil. Chile, Bolivia,US and many others. No Caribbean country is there- small minded bastards that we are!
I can appreciate that some people, the older generation, the brainwashed and the young bravados may have a concern re: the sanctity of marriage (i am all for civil rights and civil unions for LGBT- marriage is a patriarchial construct for inheritance and control and given the divorce rate- who wants it. Give LGBT equal health benefits, protection, inheritance and taxation rights etc)but to actually overtly legislate against it seems like the actions of an immature government and an immature insecure society.
@ matt: and you see that's one of the things that i'm afraid of - that the international community will look at something like this and see that it negates our claims towards becoming a "modern" post-colonial civilization... it does have the feel of something done by an immature, insecure society...
Matt:
"marriage is a patriarchial construct for inheritance and control"
It's certainly been widely used for that purpose, but your definition seems to be inappropriately constricted. If we start defining things purely on the basis of historical origin and happenstance misuse then we're *all* in trouble.
Will:
The international community worships power, historical and current. Our race, size, (lack of) wealth, and history steadily transmit associations of powerlessness and inadequacy to the international community. We cannot proceed in hope of impressing them; that's a losing battle for the foreseeable future.
We have to proceed on the basis of ethical self-interest.
There's no point in proclaiming ourselves to be post-colonial, and then fearing that backward behaviour might proves the falsity of words that no-one really believed in the first place.
Don't hope for the admiration of the international community; it's currently out-of-stock in our neighborhood, and meaningless even if we achieved it.
It's interesting to see what's going on here. With an exception or two, the side proposing same-sex marriage is worryingly characterised with people launching ad hominem attacks in every post, arguments that make several appeals to emotion to every appeal to reason, and people bandying about words like 'bigotry', 'intolerance' and 'fear-mongering'. The side opposing same-sex marriage, in contrast, is apparently being overly rational and dispassionate, and somewhat cruel. Perhaps I ought to make the same request that Obama made of interlocutors in the abortion debate in his recent speech at Notre Dame: be charitable, listen, and think about what the other side is saying. Please?
hbynoe
The questions you ask are moving, but by themselves they make an ineffectual argument. As far as I am aware, there is no principle that the government or the society should accept every type of relationship that each person finds valuable. I also hate the West Indian homophobia, but I really don't think that allowing same-sex marriage is the solution.
And where did you get that 10% figure from? The estimates I've seen have been in the 2 - 7% range, with many of them noting that there's a popular but probably inaccurate 10% figure floating around. For example, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
Will
Thanks for finding the comment and for understanding me.
And why do you have it set that you must approve every comment before it shows?
Empath
What freedoms are we denying homosexuals that we are giving to others?
Although there are disagreements on its details, the effect of Jesus' work on earth on the Mosaic commandments is one of the most important and best-known threads in Christian theology. It's part of Christianity 101, if I may borrow that common American example. The kinds of punishments prescribed in the Levitical law should be as well-known as the fact that, as a result of Jesus' work, we are no longer required to uphold them. The context in which I quoted those verses should make the reason I quoted them clear.
Where are the slippery slope fallacies?
I know of no countries that fit the set of conditions you asked for. But really, the way to counter my argment isn't to demand a real-life explanation. It is to meet my case and point out how the arguments for redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would not work for those other kinds of marriage.
And where is the fear-mongering? Even if I turned out to be right, what's so wrong with polygamy, and marrying animals, and pederasty, and marrying the Eiffel Tower? Once the parties are all happy, it's all consensual and no one is necessarily hurt, right? Tell me if you can come up with a coherent reason from your worldview after reading the Wikipedia articles on Zoophilia and Pederasty.
I suspect that you don't see much difference between the drafting of the bill and the Levitical law because you misread them both. As I said: you conflate disallowing an action with hating a person who we define in terms of that action. Well, you sometimes do it. It seems not to happen for crimes and people who you think are being rightful punished. I mean, I can't tell the last time I heard someone say that it's hateful and bigoted to imprison thieves.
(1 of 2; cont'd)
(2 of 2; cont'd)
mattstorm
Why are you representing us if that's the way you feel about these issues?
Which UN resolution are you talking about? I vaguely remembered something like that in the news, so Googled and Wiki'd and the best I could come up with are two things. The first is called the Brazilian Resolution by some (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Resolution). It was presented to the Economic and Social Council in 2003. It was backed by 20 members (the ECOSOC has 54 members). The US was not one of them. That's the last resolution on that matter that I could find; that was more than 5 years ago.
Perhaps you mean the other one: the UN declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_declaration_on_sexual_orientation_and_gender_identity). This declaration -- there wasn't enough support for a resolution -- was presented to the GA in December 2008 and it was signed by 66 of the UN's 192 members. Once again, the US was not one of them, though it seems Obama intends to make it one soon. Interestingly though, one Caribbean country -- Cuba -- did sign it. (Can I preempt the chorus proclaiming how much Cuba's decision further underscores our backwardness?)
"The international views on these kinds of homophobic societies and laws are slowly changing", you say. I can hardly imagine a worse non-economic argument for us to change than that. Perhaps their islandness is doing these "small-minded bastards" some good after all.
And haha, to top it off, you call us an insecure, immature society of brainwashed bravados.
Nice post, sir/ma'am! Be sure to let me know when you're ready to present real arguments based on accurate facts.
kamal: i set to approve every comment because i don't want spam (some has slipped through blogger's word verification - but i caught it)... also, i've been through enough online social interaction where people just spout meaningless obscenities on other people's pages - homie don't play that...
usually i publish everything people post... takes away from real time discussion, but what you go do?
@ guttaperk: but in terms of ethical self-interest then... how does denial of rights satisfy both those things? self-interest surely - the self-interest of a majority that opposes something based on spurious grounds... but ethical? how can this be ethical?
i realise that our society is not yet ready for same-sex marriage... i totally get that... so it shouldn't be forced down anyone's throats... but the constitution mentions nothing on equal rights regardless of sexual orientation - everything else, yeah... but not that... and it is a glaring omission... is it then ethical, when given the opportunity to draft a whole new constitution to deny rights to people who have been recognised as human beings? and in not recognising these rights, isn't it saying that the state considers these people to be outside the bounds of "normal" humanity? and who decided that? psychologists? physicians? sociologists? anthropologists? nope - politicians... politicians and (in the case of the guy who lead the consultation i went to) one pedagogical dinosaur... ethics did not enter into it...
and the self-interest? huh... yeah... the self-interest of the patriarchy that drafted the thing... the self-interest of a politician is rarely that of the entire country... it panders to the overt, vocal opinions of the majority, which sometimes succumbs to mob dynamics rather than personal study, reflection and introspection...
maybe i'm just too cynical (or not cynical enough perhaps)... but i just can't get over the fact that these are human beings we're dealing with... human beings who make daily sacrifices for and contributions to the country - and yet they are marginalised...
ok... i'm going on too long...
@ kamal: you asked empath: What freedoms are we denying homosexuals that we are giving to others?
seriously? come on... the law allows two men who are observed in the sex act to be sent to prison... so ok... the right to poke whoever they want without fear of being imprisoned has been denied...
also... there's no protection against discrimination in the work place - every other minority group (possibly with the exception of the mentally ill) has this protection... in fact, there's nothing protecting homosexuals at all... so... gays can't complain or protest anything, because they don't have the right to do so, based on their sexuality - they can do so in other areas, but not based on sexuality discrimination...
and then... the right to marriage and family has been denied them...
@ kamal (again): gosh this wading through comments is starting to get ridiculous... lol...
anyway... i think hbynoe makes a valuable addition to the discussion - she's the only one giving us a first hand experience... this is the result of discrimination and, yes, bigotry... her argument holds perhaps the most water here since she has been directly affected by the problem... you say her arguments are ineffectual, but i disagree... we often ignore the human side of a debate - the passion... a passionate argument, from one person who is directly affected by discrimination, is as effective and valid as a plethora of academic, dispassionate discourse - perhaps even more so...
Will
The question was in relation to not allowing same-sex marriage, but I guess the sodomy laws are fair game. It seems I always have to come back to something I've said before: this is not just about homosexuals. I have to keep coming back to the other classes of sexual behaviours that both sides generally think are fair game for criminalisation.
No one has the right or freedom to have sex with whatever he wants. No one has the right to marry whomever she wants (or whomever he loves). There are reasonable arguments for same-sex marriage, but the only way I think the "You're denying them rights" angle can possibly work is if you look at the rights of couples rather than the rights of individuals. So while no one has the right to marry someone of the same sex, married couples have the 'right' to certain benefits.
But then doing that raises questions such as how a couple can have rights when our constitutions only grant individual rights, and if it is that married couples have the right to things like shared healthcare coverage or if that is only a benefit that the government grants them.
The point on discrimination is a fair and good one, but I don't think it falls under the rights-denying thing. Perhaps, in general, differentiation based on criteria irrelevant to the fulfilment of a job -- whether it's a person's affinity for people of the same sex or his natural-born tendency to consume alcohol excessively -- shouldn't be allowed. But I haven't really given that alternative solution much though.
The problem I have with hbynoe's questions and her sharing of her personal experience isn't that it's a passionate argument, it's that it isn't an argument. I'm all for colourful, passionate arguments with lucid examples (though it seems I haven't been making any here :P), and I do acknowledge the role of the human side of every debate that so profoundly affects people. But I think that we need to be able to recognise statements that are little more than masterful appeals to emotion and treat them as such.
ok kamal... let's agree to disagree...
I think it was Helen Keller who said: “the highest result of education is tolerance.” That this clause exists should not surprise us. That this discussion is taking place is cause to celebrate. But the question now is this: should the tolerant tolerate the intolerant? The answer of course is NO! We must bear in mind what Oscar Wilde said: “A man who moralizes is usually a hypocrite.” The role of the tolerant is to educate!
Will:
"in terms of ethical self-interest then... how does denial of rights satisfy both those things? self-interest surely - the self-interest of a majority that opposes something based on spurious grounds... but ethical? how can this be ethical?"
Oppression of gay couples is neither ethical nor the public's best interest.
"isn't it saying that the state considers these people to be outside the bounds of "normal" humanity?"
Homosexual couples, like thrice-married heterosexual couples, or like newlywed 80-year-olds, can be considered "abnormal" by some definitions. That really shouldn't matter, and it's a waste of time to debate it when "normal" is such a murky concept.
I'm abnormal, you're abnormal, they're abnormal.
Kemal:
I don't think that gay people have a right to marriage. I do think, however, that they have a right not to be unfairly singled out for denial of either marriage or the things that marriage brings.
Marriage in our societies performs complex social, legal, and familial functions. When you deny those functions to gay people, you are cruelly discriminating against them in a fashion that I find to be immoral both from a secular and from a religious perspective.
From my point of view, ethical Christian opposition to gay marriage would bring with it the responsibility to make utterly, utterly certain that that such opposition harmed no-one. Ethical Christians against gay marriage should be the loudest voices calling for stronger law supporting the rights of gay families, so that marriage would be unnecessary.
The absence of such voices suggests to me that the basis for most opposition is not Christian misgiving, but BIGOTRY, to a degree that I find almost physically painful.
One aspect of such bigotry is the association in the minds of many between homosexuality and bestiality, so that a discussion of one drifts over to the other. This is reminiscent of the way in which bigoted white people so love to compare black people to various kinds of animals. It's bigotry, no matter how the one doing the comparing can rationalise it.
People are not animals. This *is* just about homosexuals. Marrying another person is not the same as marrying a thing. The comparison is fundamentally an illogical one.
the only way I think the "You're denying them rights" angle can possibly work is if you look at the rights of couples rather than the rights of individuals.
Not really. For example, a married lesbian woman should have the right to defer health care decisions to her spouse without the state casually over-ruling her decision. That is an individual right, not a couple right, and it is a right that is central to this discussion.
I agree with you that it's important to remember the human side of this debate. That means, though, that we need to seek out and truly listen to the difficulties of the humans who oppose us, and that we need to utterly reject any aspect of our own argument that diminishes the humanity of those who oppose us.
Are you doing that, Kemal?
guttaperk
The right of all persons to marry is proclaimed in Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 23 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Right (and in other such documents, I suppose). Section 17 of our proposed new constitution also proclaims that right in language that suggests that that section was inspired by those two Articles. So yes, gay people have a right to marry.
The simplest (but probably not the only) test of if this right is being equally applied to all persons is to check if everyone has the same right. That is, do the same rules apply to everyone people? Is everyone allowed to marry under the same conditions? Is everyone granted the same benefits? Do the same restrictions apply to everyone?
To answer this, we have to first identify the features of the right to marry that the proposed constitution would grant. In Section 17 we see that the right to marry is granted to everyone subject to the following restrictive conditions:
1) The parties must be of the civil age of legal and societal responsibility.
2) There must only be two parties.
3) One party must be biologically male and the other biologically female.
So we have an age restriction, a numerical restriction (I'm assuming here that the numerical restriction prohibits polygamous marriages) and a restriction on sex. There's also an implicit restriction on humanness. It is absolutely clear that same-sex marriages aren't
the only kinds of marriage being excluded here. When one further considers the fact that the statement of the definition is positive (it isn't anything like "Marriage between persons of the same sex shall not be recognised"), it's fairly clear that only a mutilating reading could lead someone to conclude that "this *is* just about homosexuals".
Of course, this does not mean that same-sex relations are identical to the other types being excluded, or that intercourse between two people of the same sex is identical to intercourse between a human and a non-human animal, or that all gays are paedophiles, or that homosexuality and paedophilia (or paedosexuality?) are identical, or that all polygamists are gay, or anything of that sort. These restrictions are applied right across the board. Homosexuals aren't the only ones who won't be allowed to marry others of the same sex. Those men who can't seem to settle with one woman won't be the only ones who are disallowed from marrying more than one woman at the same time.
That addresses, yet again, the inexplicably common misunderstanding of my argument that is borne out in your statements, "Marrying another person is not the same as marrying a thing. The comparison is fundamentally an illogical one."
The next thing is your charge that anyone who denies the "complex...functions" of marriage to homosexuals is cruelly discriminating against them. My first and apparently flippant retort to this is that homosexuals aren't being denied marriage. My second response is a question: why? What is it about homosexual relations and marriage makes opposing same-sex marriage part and parcel with "cruelly" discriminating against them? I'm especially interested in your argument that this is as true from a religious perspective as it is for a secular perspective.
You then go on to talk about "ethical Christian opposition to gay marriage". Why should Christians call for strong laws to support the rights of gay families? And what kind of gay families without marriage do you have in mind? Are you saying that if we oppose same-sex marriage we should support same-sex civil unions that grant the same benefits as marriage?
Maybe when you explain what you mean by those things I'll be able to understand why you persist in calling me and most other opponents of same-sex marriage bigots.
[1 of 2, cont'd]
[cont'd, 2 of 2]
Finally, the example of a married lesbian (presumably married to another lesbian) doesn't support your case. As it stands, homosexuals have precisely the same rights as heterosexuals within marriages. A lesbian woman can defer health care to her spouse in precisely the same way that a heterosexual woman can defer health care to her spouse. There is a restriction, of course: both lesbians and heterosexual women are only allowed to marry men. Where is the right that is being denied to the homosexual that the heterosexual possesses?
And yes, guttaperk, I am listening to the difficulties of those who oppose me and rejecting those aspects of my argument that diminish their humanity. With all the ad hominem attacks and clear misunderstandings of my argument, perhaps I should be the one asking you that.
Jamal, I reject your argument as one that is not in good faith. It completely and explicitly ignores what gay people are calling for, completely ignores their stated and unstated needs, while explicitly offering them what you know they will not want.
It is not a humane or respectful response.
As for ad hominem attacks– well, I condemn them, but now, more than ever, I can understand them.
Your arguments in this thread have moved me from thinking that both sides have valid arguments, to thinking that your side has none.
guttaperk, your first paragraph makes me wonder if we've been in the same debate here. How can you say that I ignored any of those things when my posts make it clear that I've considered them and have, so far, rejected them? Do you think that considering a request and rejecting it is the same as ignoring it? It is clear that I'm not offering the proponents of same-sex marriage what they want; that's why I'm not on their side of this debate. Are you really saying that not accepting the demands of a position you oppose suggests that you're not arguing against that position in good faith?
It seems that most of the people on your side equate disagreeing with their position with being inhumane and direspectful. It's utterly infuriating -- especially when you try to be gracious and charitable in everything from your choice of descriptive terms to your interpretation of their arguments. But that's just life, I guess.
And if my arguments have, indeed, done as you say they've done, good sir, then you really, really need to rethink the way you think.
oh no... 54 people responded before I did (Will you had a LOT of moderation to do, huh? Lucky you :p) Oh wait... is not 54 people... is bout 6 people having a debate... yummy!
I wish I could read all the responses, but really... not today. I'll try to come back.
I doh even know what was said or what to add. So for now I'll stay mum. But jus so you know, I passed through :)
And this was obviously a very very very stirring post...
Funny how controversy brings in a nice haul of fresh voices, huh??
Antillean,
Double check the December 08 resolution- US and other countries have signed. It IS progress when a document like that is initiated and signed by over 80 countries whether it has been adopted by the UNGA or not. That is how international issues evolve- progressively and sometimes in small steps.
'Why am I representing my region'?
I don't have to agree with everything my region does to represent them. It is my job. However I don't have to sell my soul to the lowest common demoninators in our society as well. Sometimes the best way to change something is to educate and inform from the inside.
...and don't dismiss the impact of changing international views- that was ONE of the reasons for the end of apartheid and one of the reasons we are having a climate change debate and one of the reasons why some of us, Barbados included, is getting rid of the mandatory use of the death penalty. I don't know which country St. Vincent recognises today- China or Taiwan- but I wonder if either of those countries were to support equality for LGBT under the law whether the government would have even thought about such a law- you can-t deny how responsive the OECS is to external funding so don-t dismiss external influence- sometimes it can be a good and useful tool. These may seem empty arguments- much like someome who supports racial equality must ask why do they have to come up with legal, biblical, social etc arguments to support something with is just right!! - equal rights for all...that is how I feel at this stage. There is a great book out published by the ICJ (international commission of Jurists) and edited by a Jamaican colleague, that gives the legal arguments for equality if you are interested in reading it.
If only we could get such a raging debate going on corruption, poverty and other issues.
mattstorm, yeah, you're right, that is a change. And you're right about the changes that international views will have on us; I think I said something to acknowledge that it's a strong economic argument but not a strong argument otherwise.
What parts of your representation do your support? What are some of the hot issues that you're proud to represent us on?
And yeah, I'd love to read that book.
"...I do acknowledge the role of the human side of every debate that so profoundly affects people. But I think that we need to be able to recognise statements that are little more than masterful appeals to emotion and treat them as such."
This comment from Kamal in response to a post by hbynoe, who openly says she's lesbian, is somewhat like a desk clerk saying that soldiers on the battlefield are 'making masterful appeals to emotion' for the war to end. They are the ones who bleed, my brother. There is no more powerful argument than that. For some, this discussion is no more than an academic exercise, for others it is a battle for survival.
@ anonymous above me:
you know that is so true... that is why i feel that hbynoe's contribution to this discussion is the most important...
Homosexuality is a threat to the continuation of the species - for me that's a good enough reason to stand against it. However, last time I checked, Jehovah God expressed no preference for heterosexual adulterers and fornicators over their homosexual counterparts. So while church going married men/women who engage in sexually immoral behaviours (like cheating on their spouses) might find safety in constitutional amendments, they will not find a cooler spot reserved in Hades for them.
This comment from Kamal in response to a post by hbynoe, who openly says she's lesbian, is somewhat like a desk clerk saying that soldiers on the battlefield are 'making masterful appeals to emotion' for the war to end. They are the ones who bleed, my brother. There is no more powerful argument than that. For some, this discussion is no more than an academic exercise, for others it is a battle for survival. -- Anon
Yes, there are more powerful (actual) arguments than that. Arguments that appropriately and validly appeal to reason and emotion are the most obvious type.
The first major problem with appeals to emotion is that they don't really interact with rational arguments. One dead soldier's mother could use the tale of her son's fall in an argument to stop a war in about the same way that another soldier's wife could use the tale of her husband's death in an argument to see a war through to a suitable end. The fact that people are suffering in a situation demands attention and action, but the kind of attention and the type of response that it demands depends on rational frameworks.
One of the other major problems with such emotional appeals is that they are difficult to compare and reconcile. What happens when the cry of the Iraqi father meets the tears of the American mother? What are the rules of emotionising that deal with the conflict between the hurt and frustration of a lesbian woman who thinks she's being discriminated against and the distress and pain of the Christian mother who thinks that sanctioning such acts amounts to almost certainly dooming millions to hell? What happens when the passionate pro-lifer meets the equally passionate pro-choicer?
So, once again, I'm not saying that contributions like hbynoe's are worthless. I'm saying that they are appeals to the emotion (not arguments) and that they should be recognised and treated as such. Appeals to the emotion have extremely important roles to play in convincing people of things, but we treat them as arguments on pain of irrationality and at our own peril. Those who will most feel the effects of a decision need to realise these things and use their feelings and experiences in appropriate, effective manners.
Kamal, I don't know if you have children, but for argument's sake let say you have a daughter. Let's say she's at that age when young women usually start showing interest in dating. Let's say she's showing zero interest in the opposite sex, but rather is very keen on a member or members of the same sex. In other words, it seems that she's gay. What would you do, if anything?
Anon, I'd probably talk to her and pray for her. I'm sure I'd still love her, and I'm also sure I wouldn't disown her. What I'd say and what I'd pray for would be in keeping with the positions I've expressed here. I suppose my disapproval may also be expressed in the ways typical of other fathers with a say in their teenage daughters' lives.
Why do you ask?
Still to much here to process and reply to, but let me just say this: the argument that same-sex marriage leads to marrying toasters and trees etc is really a STUPID argument. No one can compare consensual love/sex/marriage with someone wishing to marry a horse for instance. The damn horse cannot express consent, the toaster cannot express consent, the tree cannot express consent. Consent is the key word here, hence the reason I am also adamantly opposed to arranged marriages, where one or both parties does not provide free and unforced CONSENT.
I am equally fed up of this "protecting the family" line of debate. In a region where the majority of households are headed, and funded, by single, un-wed women, protection of a 2-parent familial unit is largely irrelevant.
" In a region where the majority of households are headed, and funded, by single, un-wed women, protection of a 2-parent familial unit is largely irrelevant."
I agree with you otherwise, but your last comment is logically and ethically questionable.
(1) 2-parent family units and gay pairings may both be minorities, but both deserve protection and neither are irrelevant. It's immoral for you to claim that they are.
(2) It's been repeatedly shown that children benefit from the addition of a second parental unit. Single mothers are not to be penalised, but the benefits of a second parent should not be denied.
Be careful. The fundies argue by claiming that particular minorites are irrelevant. They are wrong; let's not join them in those kinds of claims.
blahblohblog, pretending for a moment that I argued that same-sex marriage leads to marrying toasters and trees, why should anyone think that consent is the key dividing factor here? Why consent and not love (however the parties imagine it)? Why consent and not the sex of the parties? Why consent and not the utility of marriage to the state?
And I think that things like the preponderance of absentee fathers and single-parent families argue more for protecting marriage and the family than against it.
guttaperk, please stop trolling.
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